Curse

xeRox teh Sorcerer · Dec 20, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

If we didn't have CoP, people would use the next best build for the job. Maybe that is RoJ Smiters, SF eles or ES Mesmers, whatever - we don't know. What we do know is that despite CoP being a very powerful and easy to use skill, without it it wouldn't be long before we were almost as fast with another build if we lost CoP.
Cons, SF tanks & new techniques has cut more time off doa runs than Cry of Pain has.

Tyla · Dec 20, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

People used to run Tanks with Elementalists for damage even in HM. Did it do the job? Yes. Was it as effective above all else? No. What did my previous post have to do with the mentality of players? Nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterT

I think you've confused fun with making money. CoP makes DoA one of the fastest moneymakers in the game, a 1hr30 SC nets u 2, 4, 6, and 8 of each type of gem if you finish. Just with 8 titans alone which sell for 5k each, you just got 40k. Or you can do 2-3 full runs and have an armbrace which u can sell for 55e nowadays.

Not only that, but the mesmers are a vital part of making all this happen, considering 1/4 of the current DoA build is composed of mesmer primaries.

So I say leave CoP how it is and let mesmers be in demand for SC's like they are now.

People run a lot of shit, as given in my example above. Physicals, Sabway, Discordway, Cryway, Tank'N'Spank... people will always go for the easier methods to them. In PvE, they all get the job done, Tank'N'Spank being the weakest, but easiest to run.

Now, I wasn't confusing money with fun, but some people like to get over 9000 gold for fun. As it's already been mentioned that fun is subjective.

romeus petrus · Dec 20, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

People used to run Tanks with Elementalists for damage even in HM. Did it do the job? Yes. Was it as effective above all else? No. What did my previous post have to do with the mentality of players? Nothing.

You said using imbagon leaves the rest of the team flexible for builds. I said CoP leaves 7 skills on your bar open for builds. Players' mentalities are what limit what they use as they conceive certain builds as the most efficient.

So I would say yes the relevance is there is you read thoroughly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xeRox teh Sorcerer

If we didn't have CoP, people would use the next best build for the job. Maybe that is RoJ Smiters, SF eles or ES Mesmers, whatever - we don't know. What we do know is that despite CoP being a very powerful and easy to use skill, without it it wouldn't be long before we were almost as fast with another build if we lost CoP.
Cons, SF tanks & new techniques has cut more time off doa runs than Cry of Pain has.

^QFT.

xeRox teh Sorcerer · Dec 20, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

I must have misunderstood you. How is tank'n'spank weak? Fastest way to clear most elite areas...

Akolo · Dec 20, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

your saying that cryway is so easy.
well maybe the way pugs and most ppl do it.

but thats not how you get the times, its not cop that does it.
the time cutting lies in the tanking, all the special tactics, a good team with coordination that knows exactly what to do.

i could show you how we do veil, then you do it, and come back and tell me that it was easy.

what im saying is unlike ursan, far from anyone can get a nice time using cryway.

Tyla · Dec 20, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

I meant that there are more builds to choose from than Tank, Spiker or Monk.

@ZeRox: I mean the one with Elementalists, hence why I didn't put it with Cryway.

@Handy: This discussion isn't about times, this discussion is about how hard Cryway is. You're also saying Tank'N'Spank is skillful in a way, there you know. lol.

xeRox teh Sorcerer · Dec 20, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Cryway is tank'n'spank. You didn't answer my question, or spell my name right.

Ohai Oujo, something we agree on ^^

romeus petrus · Dec 20, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Tyla you can incorporate as many builds as you like while members of your team have CoP on their bar. You can take trappers, rit spikers, SS/FoC necros, Minion Bombers, 100 blades warriors, Derv/Assa DPS machines.... Players would choose what they conceive to be the most effective build to clear any given area in a decent time, just like they used the old BP build to clear tombs.

Just like the agro guys said, clearing DoA HM in 1-1.5h has more to do with techniques and cons than CoP being overpowered. You can choose not to do that and instead insist on doing it in 3-4hs with a "balanced" build. But that's your personal preference, dont try to make it sound like it requires more skill or make ppl doing it better players.

Cheers Agro guys!

Akolo · Dec 20, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

it is about times, its easy to get a slow time, but its harder to get a better time isnt it?

Tyla · Dec 20, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

If CoP wasn't overpowered Cryway wouldn't be "the shit". Having other melee in your build will only hurt the concept of Tank'N'Spank. Clearing DoA is all aggro management and hit CoP when it comes to it.

Also, I thought it was the actual difficulty of using Cryway, and not the "i r betr at gimiks dan u" e-peen factor?

romeus petrus · Dec 20, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If CoP wasn't overpowered Cryway wouldn't be "the shit". Having other melee in your build will only hurt the concept of Tank'N'Spank. Clearing DoA is all aggro management and hit CoP when it comes to it.

CoP is a PvE skill, it is meant to be overpowered. It is not an instant win button or a godmode. *cough SY/SF *cough

And aggro management with clean spikes in DoA is a problem because....?

Mind you Aggro management and clean spikes in DoA takes a decent degree of coordination and skill.

xeRox teh Sorcerer · Dec 20, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Clearing DoA is all aggro management and hit CoP when it comes to it.

Correct.

But doing it in a decent time is a totally different thing. Most use cry because its the best skill for the job. Why run a similar build that just makes your run longer and less safe? Doesn't make you pro, makes you stupid.

If it was all down to CoP, we wouldn't have taken 20 minutes off our doa runs without changing our builds, but we did.

Tyla · Dec 20, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

CoP is a PvE skill, it is meant to be overpowered. It is not an instant win button or a godmode. *cough SY/SF *cough

And you say that clearing a mob in a second isn't an instawin button?

Quote:

And aggro management with clean spikes in DoA is a problem because....?

It's a problem?

Quote:

Mind you Aggro management and clean spikes in DoA takes a decent degree of coordination and skill.

Clean spikes are easier in a caster spike (it doesn't need to be clean unless the enemy has coordinated Monks), aggro management is easy if you know the area and know what bodyblocking is.

romeus petrus · Dec 20, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And you say that clearing a mob in a second isn't an instawin button?

It's a problem?

Clean spikes are easier in a caster spike (it doesn't need to be clean unless the enemy has coordinated Monks), aggro management is easy if you know the area and know what bodyblocking is.

Have you tried to spike the fury in HM before?

You made it sound like aggro control and clean spikes is what lesser players do, and it is clearly not the case. It is what smart players do.

Tyla · Dec 20, 2008, 01:01 AM // 01:01

You don't need to be smart to control aggro, clean spikes are more based on how well the players know each other aswell as their timing.

romeus petrus · Dec 20, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

I disagree. Unless you would like to finish in 4-5hs you must have some skill to control aggro, the same applies for clean spikes.

You consider it not smart to control aggro and do clean spikes, I consider it idiotic to finish something that you can finish in 1h, in over 3hs.

Tyla · Dec 20, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

I didn't say "clean spikes aren't smart", I said that it is more based on how well you play with certain people.

I said you don't need to be smart to control aggro effectively.

romeus petrus · Dec 20, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I said you don't need to be smart to control aggro effectively.

That must be the reason over 90% of PUGs in DoA dont finish the run. Coz it is just so brainless to control aggro.

Tyla · Dec 20, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Because PuGs were competent anyway?

romeus petrus · Dec 20, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

If it was so brainless as u make it seem even PUGs would have a better completion rate. Compare the rate of PUGS failing in DoA to that of them failing in UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz.

Speaking of Urgoz Im about to go on a guild run there, so I'll catch you later.